Understanding Your Rights As A Freebirth/Homebirth Mama

In this episode we talk with a pro, and answer some of the top asked questions surrounding free birth and home birth rights.

The Crunchy Legal Lady, known to her friends as Julie, is a law clerk for one of the most prestigious and successful law firms in the health freedom space. Before attending law school, Julie worked for seven years in the research sphere consulting high touch clients, such as Harvard, Yale, and Stanford as well as tech giants like Google and Amazon, on how to successfully conduct and fulfill their research. It was during this time that Julie became disillusioned with the research industry and began questioning the mainstream scientific narrative. After thoroughly researching regulatory agencies and their claims, Julie felt called to help fight for bodily autonomy and medical freedom, which lead her to law school and eventually becoming, the Crunchy Legal Lady.

Connect with Julie on IG @crunchy.legal.lady

****disclaimer**** Please note that the information provided in this episode is for educational purposes only and should not be taken as legal advice. 

Transcript

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Welcome to Women of the Wild Podcast. Here, our community of wise women comes together to explore and discuss naturopathic medicine, fertility free birth, and cultivating inner peace and joy through embracing alternative lifestyles. These are powerful women and pioneers in the modern age who choose to live and heal free of Westernized limitations. Many we will speak to have bravely and successfully cured themselves through chronic and even terminal illness prior to setting forth on their mission to offer healing to others. Together we return to our roots, to our inner wisdom and our birth rights to the wild in all of us, and together we grow to change the world. I'm your host, Jenny Dice. All right. Hello everybody. Today we have a pretty fabulous guest should I get to talk to about the legalities of free birth. So I'll let you take the floor and introduce yourself a little bit and tell everybody who you are and what led you to get into this profession. Awesome. So I am the crunchy label lady. My friends call me Julie, and I actually am a log clerk for one of the most. Prestigious law firms and successful law firms when it comes to bodily economy, protecting medical freedom and health freedom. And I actually, before going to law school and getting into this space, I worked in research for about seven years. So what I used to do was I would consult really high-touch clients on how to do their research, how to best fulfill their research. So, I used to work with people like Harvard, Yale, and Stanford. I would work with their PhDs, their MDs, and I would also work with some tech giants like Google and Amazon helping them to fulfill their research. And it was during that time that I kind of became disillusioned with the mainstream medical narrative. And because I was seeing a lot of things behind closed doors and actually working through a lot of these research projects that were being published, they were being used. In commercials, in medical journals, in all kinds of articles to prove or to show something was true. When I knew that the research really wasn't done as thoroughly or ethically as many people thought that it was being done. And so during that experience, I started doing my own research on our government entities, on our claims and health. And just basically what we believe to be true in general. And it was during that process that I decided to pursue the law to try to help people and become the crunchy legal lady. We work with a number of clients. I am not a party to say like, I can't, because of my contract and the work that I do, I can't say everyone that we work with. But I can say we've been involved in, like, for example, the recent Supreme Court case that stopped OSHA from mandating people from being vaccinated in the workplace. So we were part of that lawsuit. We've been a part of a lot of lawsuits with the F D A, with the C D C, and we have won a lot of information and got got them to admit a lot of things that they have been hiding for a long time. You know, as far as in the birthing realm, I know we had a lot of questions from several women about the legalities of rebirth and home birth in the us. If you could shadow a little light on that for some of our listeners. I know that a lot of people are curious about. What their rights are. Yeah, definitely. And I think this is a subject that gets skewed a lot and that there are a lot of, because of the way that the medical system works, and because we're born into the medical system, we kind of had this idea that certain things are illegal, that are not illegal, that are just basic human rights, or we have this idea that there are all these. Rules or laws around certain things that there are not, and that's not to say that there aren't laws around birth or birthing at home and things like that, but as far as free birth goes, I think Jenny, you know that I'm a free birther as well. I have three little kids and three littles, and two of them were born at home, and my last one was a complete free birth. And so I can tell you bring someone in the label profession. It's not illegal to free birth your baby and in any state, it's not illegal. So the big case on this, although there's not a lot of substantive like law or like codes, like if you would think about like, oh, we'll open a law book and there's a bunch of codes or laws or rules or bills or things like that, there's actually not a lot of that on free birth itself. What there is is some case law, and so I'm just gonna take a second to kind of explain the way that law works, if that's okay with you. Fantastic. Please do. Okay. Yeah, so a lot of our, a lot of us, when we think about law, like I said, we think about bills that become law or like a Congress passing a law. And or like our state senate passing a law and the governor signing off on it. And I think many of us growing up in that like kind of eighties, nineties generation, remember like the, I'm just a bill kind of little shows that we had right. To teach us about that. And we know there's three branches of government. But we don't really understand how law kind of really works and how it's implemented. And so I think if you really wanna live a life more outside the system or more holistically, it is important to know your rights and to kind of know the way that law really works. And especially at this time where. You know, there are a lot of challenges to our human rights and to our bodily autonomy. It's really important to kind of get plugged into this and be aware. So the, the first thing I wanna say is, yes, there are statutes and that kind of does look work the way that we think that it does. Someone comes with a bill and it's a proposed law. It's something that they think should be proposed law. There's discussion about it and. There's a lot of talk and maybe it gets passed or maybe it doesn't, and that's one set. But those laws, in my opinion, matter much less than another form of law that we vem talk about, which is judicial law. And we often call that case law, and that is law made by judges through cases. So we hear about Supreme Court cases. But we don't really understand sometimes why they're so important or why this judicial law is so important. Every state has hundreds of judges, and judges are either elected or they are put in by the governor or the president. And there's some good reasons for that. Like we don't always want our judges to be elected, at least in some thought processes, because it can make them more biased or partisan to whoever elect elected them. But sometimes you don't want, you know, certain legislators to put in judges because then they'll be biased and partisan to what they want. So it's kind of a catch 22, but, Hopefully, you know, the idea of a judge is regardless of that, that they will take the case and they'll try to be a neutral party, and what will happen is that someone will have an issue or a problem and it'll conflict with the statute or what a statute says. And then that party will come in or they'll be, you know, some kind of case. It could be criminal, it could be civil, and it applies to some of those statutes. And so what the judge's job is going to be when they decide that case, they're not just deciding that person's story or who wins the case or who goes to jail or not, what they're deciding is actually the law and how it, how it applies. So when you have a statue or something, The, the judge is gonna be the one who interprets that statute, who really puts it into real time and shows us, shows us, okay, what are the limits of this law? What does this actually look like in action? How do we apply this to people? And so as a lawyer, we do study some statutes and we do study a lot of that, but a lot of what we do is we are studying cases, cases upon cases we study. What, what do the judges say in their opinion? Because these judges opinions are laws, and Supreme Court cases are so important because they are the law of the whole land, not just the state, but they apply to all of us and they overrule, you know, everything else, basically. So that's why the Supreme Court is so important. When we talk about free word and they're not being very many statutes about the legalities of free birth. What we really can turn to is the case law, and there's not tons of case law on it. But the most, uh, the highest court that's actually ruled on this and talked about free birth is a Massachusetts court in a case called Commonwealth v Pew. And this is actually a really sad story about a woman who didn't know she was pregnant and didn't tell it. Decided when she found out, decided not to tell anyone that she was pregnant and. From her calculation, she ended up delivering the baby early and the baby was also breach. And so meaning coming out, you know, feet first, I'm sure most people know that, what that means, but you know, the baby did not end up, uh, and I'm not saying that breach birth itself is dangerous, but in this case, the baby didn't end up surviving. And so she, you know, was prosecuted for not going to the hospital basically. And having decided, not telling anyone that she was having this baby, and they were kind of trying to prosecute her under like involuntary manslaughter, which is the lowest kind of form of the category of murder or homicide. And so this went all the way up to the Massachusetts Supreme Court and the Supreme Court was very clear. That we are not gonna prosecute people and women for having their babies at home. This is a natural Right. You know, if we start doing that, we're going to be interfering in the privacy of women and, and you know, their bodily autonomy with their babies and have birth at home. And, you know, this is a natural, spontaneous human occurrence. And of course, this would also get into, if they did prosecute for this, you know, this gets into so many people who. Quote unquote, accidentally have their babies at home or suddenly have their babies at home, you know, have these per precipitous births. And so the, the language from this was really strong that, you know, no, we're not gonna prosecute women. And that's kind of the strongest law that we have right now. And so, and it, so it kind of stands up as like the reigning law of the land as far as free birth is concerned. But as far as, you know, home birth with a provider, cuz I know a lot of people are gonna say, well, you know, what about Nebraska or some of these other states where they say that home birth is illegal. So free birth is not the same as home birth, at least at a, you know, judicial, judicial level or legal level. But, Home birth. The difference being, at least under the eyes of the law is whether or not you decide to have like a registered medical provider there with you and choose to have a healthcare provider there. So once you would choose to have a healthcare provider with you at your birth, be that a midwife or a nursing midwife or whatever, a lay midwife, uh, then the state rules come into play mostly. In the form of legalities with licensing and whether or not they can be licensed there. So for example, I'll just go through a couple states. So the, the states where, you know, they don't have licenses available for midwives, Include like Connecticut, dc, Georgia, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Massachusetts, Mississippi, Nevada, Nebraska. North Carolina. North Dakota, Ohio. Oklahoma. Oh, actually Oklahoma just barely got licenses. So not Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, and West Virginia. So that sounds like a lot of states. But it's the minority in the US. And again, I think something to remember with these states is that these are just states where they don't license midwives. And so, you know, you're not allowed to have a quote unquote midwife at your birth in these states, which make people think that home birth is illegal. Because you know, if you can't have a midwife, how can you have a baby at home? But that does not necessarily preclude you from having, you know, your a free birth or a unlicensed midwife at your birth, or you know, someone else. So a lay midwife, a traditional birth attendant at your birth. So I just wanna make. Those things clear as far as like the, the legalities of home birth, that's just really interesting that it all really just comes down to the phrasing of it. It almost seems like they would prefer you to just be at home by yourself with somebody unlicensed or on your own, as opposed to taking the time and effort to allow people to get the appropriate licensing to help these women who prefer to be at home. Yeah. It's, it's very interesting, you know, a lot of these, a lot of laws and. And it's really kind of astonishing when you get into it that a lot of decisions can come down to tiny words, like tiny words like and or, or like the word, and was the difference in like a huge trust in estate's case, depending on whether someone got a full inheritance or not. The, the whole decision came down to a tiny word of, and so in the law it really matters. What the statute says, what, what it actually, you know, what it means to the common person, what it's said in the dictionary. And it's very interesting here. Also, I think the reason that, you know, it really comes down to licensure and things like that. Here is just the, the power of the state in general. And you know, you are the. You're the ruler of your own body. Like you're in charge of your own body and there's only so much that the government can do to you as a, as a person. And so in these cases, you know, they really can't. Just kind of like Massachusetts was saying in, they can't like make women, at least not yet. They can't like make women and push women, you know, to have care or to. To seek care, but they do know that they can discourage women from having births at home if they won't allow, you know, midwives to be there. And so I think that's kind of the tag some of these legislatures have made. And honestly, a lot of these legislatures, like a lot of these states that don't have licensed midwives, it's really because. They just have old, really old rules. You know, stuff that hasn't been a, that like came into effect in like the fifties or something like that, that hasn't been repealed. And it's not that people are really averse to home birth there, it's just that, you know, no one has like pushed very hard and that's not the case with all these states. But I would say a lot of these states just, they have old rules on the books. I know one of the big questions that was coming my way was, There's a big fear around, you know, if a woman decides to have a birth at home and it doesn't go according to plan, let's say, and she decides to seek help at the hospital, you know, mid berth or something like that, and transfers, what are the rules surrounding the transfer? Because I, a lot of women. Are telling me horror stories and coming to me with questions saying, you know, that they've had their babies taken by the CPS p s because of the choice to birth at home first, and then stepping into the hospital arena. The, the hospital providers made the decision that they weren't fit. And so it, you know, in the end, the, the stories all end up. Pretty positive where they, they get their little ones back, but that's still a period of, say, three months where they're fighting with the system trying to regain, you know, control of their, of their own little baby that they just had. And so, you know, I'm curious of what the reality of that type of situation is. If you could shed any light on that. Yeah, so it's very unfortunate Stories like these are really unfortunate and the most unfortunate part of it is that oftentimes, you know, it doesn't necessarily have to do with your, the, the laws of your state per se, or your city or ordinances or things like that. It has a lot to do with your medical providers. Um, the people at the hospital. And you know how much they wanna get into your business. And because they're the ones who are gonna make the call to cps PS and they're the ones who, you know, there are certain professions, I mean obviously you know this, but there's certain professions who are supposed to, or they, they're mandatory reporters to CPS and some, you know, healthcare providers. Take that. Very literally and think it's their job to decide, well, you shouldn't have had a birth at home and like, that was dangerous and therefore I'm gonna call c p s on you. And which is really sad to that, you know, someone would think, you know, it's my job to get into your business when you have already had a traumatic birth experience. Probably. But also, you know, it, it, it's part, part of the reason though that a lot of these stories end up okay. And I will say that like for the vast majority of people, just people who are afraid out there, if you have CPS called on you, you shouldn't. Even if like, there might be, you know, there are stories that are really heart rendering and terrible things happen. Just a couple weeks ago, I know you and I have talked about the, the case that happened in Texas and. You know, a baby being removed for a couple weeks from the home because they chose to have a home birth and things like that. And sometimes that does happen, but the vast majority of the time, c p s can't do anything about it because these calls really come from all overzealous medical providers. And so my biggest. The first thing I always tell people, you know, if you decide to do a home birth, if you want to avoid CPS because you know you're, you do homeschool, or you have a different care plan for your child than what the doctor has, or, you know, you make choices about what goes into your child's body. That other, you know, doctors may see as like, you know, bad or whatever. The first thing I tell people is, You know, you need to get to know your healthcare providers. You know, you needed to know the hospitals around you and call them and ask them about what their policies are. Because lots of times, I mean, and lots of times this comes down to like one nurse or whatever, who's like, ah, I can't believe that, you know? Which is so dumb. It's so awful, you know? But you, you should just know, know where you're going. Don't just say like, I have a plan to transfer to this place and it's five or 15 minutes away. Or whenever, get to know that place, that emergency room, cuz that might change your mind. Like, you know, you can call in and and say, Hey I'm, I, you can even say I'm planning a home birth and I'm wondering about, you know, you guys' transfer policies and what it's like if I did have to transfer. Or you know, just like courting the hospital as if you were gonna birth there, things like that. You don't have to say you are, you know, you don't have to do this, but it is a really good protection. Again, something like that happening to you as far as like legalities about what makes, you know, what can CPS be called on in these kinds of situations? Honestly, For most states, it's gonna vary in your state, but it, it's gonna, it's going to be, you know, they shouldn't be called at all unless you're in one of these states I just named, maybe, maybe they might, might call for a home birth, but a home birth transfer, they shouldn't be calling like they have. There's no like, Legal reason, the only reason they should be calling c p s or something in a situation in the states that I named who don't have licensure is ba. It would be not about you and it shouldn't be cps p s, it would be about the person helping you, you know, the person with the license or, or who's practicing and shouldn't be prac, you know, unlicensed to practice. But hopefully that doesn't happen either. I'm curious if there is, you know, any type of language that a mother might be able to use to protect herself, like in such a case? Like would it, would it be benefit her to say, you know, I didn't even know that I was pregnant and just, you know, all of a sudden started having a baby in the bathtub and voila, here I am was, you know, in such case, would that be better than trying to explain? Yes. I was trying to have a free birth or home birth and it didn't go as planned, you know? Totally. I, I mean it's completely up to you and like what you are comfortable with, but obviously most people are going to feel more comfortable if you say, you know, we just couldn't make it to the hospital. Or we were planning to come here. You know, like you said, I didn't know I was pregnant. Oh no. Or something like that. Yeah. You know, like they, most people will, sadly, most people will feel more comfortable, but I will say, you know, home birth is, Has gone up tons. I mean, obviously since the, the beginning of the pandemic, it really, you know, numbers start, started to skyrocket, which like, I mean, looking overall, it's only like 5% of births, right? But it used to be only, you know, 1% of births are less. And so it, you know, we are getting to the point it only takes to get to that 5%. For something to start to be generally accepted. And so I do think it is starting to be more generally accepted because we have pushed that far and I think, you know, that that's something to consider or like, like I said, calling in. So hopefully you don't get too much pushback. But yeah, I think saying something like I. You know, I didn't know I was pregnant or I didn't, I, you know, this is coming faster or you know, I was gonna birth at home, but now I don't feel like I should or something like that. Then they'll be like, oh yeah, we'll take you in, you know, we'll take care of you. You probably word soul, you know? So although if you do say that, if you do say you didn't know you were pregnant, They will, they, they may, you know, drug test you or screen you or say something like, have you been, you know, all these things like, have you been drinking? Have you had prenatal care? And they might, it might make them more apt to try to take your baby to the NICU immediately after birth if you say you didn't know you were pregnant. So that's just something to be aware of. That's very good to consider. Another huge question that was coming my way is that, you know, after a home birth or a free birth, there are a lot of mothers that have to, you know, get birth certificates for travel reasons or for work reasons, et cetera. And so some of the requirements for that are medical care for the baby. So baby has to go get checked out by. A hospital or a doctor or whatnot, and in some cases that's not true. Like I know in Florida I was able to get my birth certificate without any issues at all for travel reasons, and I didn't have to do any sort of doctor or anything like that. But that's just Florida's rules. So I'm curious how that works and what mothers need to know to prepare for. Or if that's even like a, a requirement, if that's even a true requirement, what, what they're allowed to refuse and what they're not allowed to refuse in such a situation. Yeah. So Mo, for most states, the best thing to do. Is to go in physically. So if you don't have your, you know, if you've never had any prenatal care or you're, you don't plan for your baby to go see any kind of medical provider, the best thing to do is to go in physically with your baby, bring pictures with you, and you can call. So like, what I did and, and maybe you did this too. And most states will be like this. You can call ahead and say, Hey, could you send me to, sorry, where do you call it? You call the Office of Vital Statistics. So that's where, that's where you'll call. So call the Office of Vital Statistics in your state. And if literally you can look this up on like maps or, you know, whatever you use, you can look it up on the internet. Where is the, you know, office's vital statistics with their number. It'll pop up right away and. You're, you can call in before baby's born or after. Honestly, I, for mine, I was really lagging behind with this last baby and I called in like, I don't know, six weeks after she was born or something like that. And I didn't get it done until she was like, I think I didn't get it until she was like eight months old. So anyway, it timing's okay. Like, don't worry about your timing too much. Yeah. And Florida actually have an entire year, so if you're, if you happen to be in Florida, you can definitely dili Dolly. Take your time and just enjoy that first year. Yes, true. And, and I think most states will be like that. Like they will happen, they'll have a statue. Like for example, in our, in my state, there is a statute that says like, I was supposed to have my birth stuff turned in. Like five weeks after she was born. But it, it doesn't matter, like those things are not usually upheld, but you can call in before the baby's born and then you just ask for a home birth packet if you want to. You could ask, you could say, you know, I'm planning to have a free birth, and so I need a a, a birthing packet, you know, for. A home birth or whatever, you could say that. But I think just asking for a home birth packet, it's not gonna be a big deal. They'll mail it to you and then you just fill it out and after you fill it out, they do ask, usually in the home birth packets, they will ask for like some kind of healthcare provider to, you know, see the child or, or testify or witness. And y you don't necessarily, it depends, but most of the time, That can, that doesn't have to be a medical provider. That can be, you know, a chiropractor or a, a nutritionist or a PT or you know, whoever you see. Maybe even like a cranial sacral therapist and even like your lactation consultant if you do that. So you can choose one of those alternatives cuz I did not use a medical provider for mine. I actually just had my chiropractor. Sign. And if you don't even have any of that stuff, they get cases like, like this happens regularly to every state. You have to understand that like, and maybe not in the best circumstances. My sister, so all, all of my family is in the medical field, so for me, I completely like strayed from everything I was raised with. But like everyone in my family is either like a nurse or a doctor or a pt or like some kind of scientist. So, Anyway for her, she sees as a labor and delivery delivery nurse. She sees people come in all the time who you know are not in the best life circumstances. We, my state was hit really hard by the opioid epidemic, and so you'll see people come in on drugs or something like that who haven't had any prenatal care and they still have to get birth certificates. So this happens. All the time. So if they shouldn't be too weirded out, they might be kind of amazed by you. And so, you know, there are people who have never had their baby seen. And so you could have, you can instead have like some, whoever is there with you at the birth or who've seen them recently, maybe that's your mom or your aunt, or. You know, your best friend, whoever, your doula, they can also, you know, write and just sign and just say, I've seen this baby. This baby is alive. This baby is really this woman's baby. And just like sign their name. So you can do that as well. And then my advice is just, you know, fill out the packet the best that you can. Don't worry about like all the medical stuff on the packet and you can have even you as yourself. So, When I went in to do mine, I, my husband had signed that, like he was like a witness to the birth and they had, when I was on the phone with the woman, she had said, yeah, and just have him sign that. He was like, your attendant too. And so I thought he had signed that, but I came in and she was like, oh, your husband didn't sign that he was the attendant. And I was like, oh, crap. I have to go back and get all this stuff again. Like. But she was like, no, you can just sign for yourself that you were your own attendant. And I was like, well, yeah, I was so like, I should like be able to do that. But you can do that, like you can sign as your own attendant. And so yeah, the best advice I have is go in with the baby, with pictures, with your birth packet, even if it doesn't require pictures with your birth packet. And then if you are there physically and they can see that the baby is physically alive and with you and like if you want to just, you know, breastfeed there also another testament. This is your baby, but you, they will probably give you no trouble and that they'll give you the birth certificate and it's not gonna be a big deal. But you can also mail it in. But more people have issues mailing it in because, They are more likely to be seen as like fraudulent. And the, the whole idea of this right is we don't want someone to steal somebody else's baby and say it's their baby and it was born from them. So like that's what we're trying to protect against. So that's why you should just go in with your baby. Thank you for all that information. And let's see, before we wrap up, was there anything else that you wanted to share or that you feel is good advice? Oh, so many things. I guess I better prepared. Well just follow my channel so you can know all the things. I will continue to post there, but no, what I really wanna say I think is just remember that you are, you know, again, like you are the one who's in charge of your body. You're the one who's in charge of your child and you're your baby. And I think that women we, like I said before, if you. Learning more about your rights, learning more about these legalities, even if you wanna opt out of the system. And I, I know there's a big push to completely opt out of the system and I think, you know, in lots of ways that's good. I've heard lots of people say, you know, the only way to correct the system is to make a whole new system. And I think that's very true. And I do think there are. Providers, care provider, you know, doctors and healers, and people who aren't really trying to do that. They're trying to build a new system. I think that's really good. I also think that this old system is still gonna be there as we build a new system. And so it's really important to know about it in case it comes knocking at at some point on your your door and just to always know that. You know, if, if we as women, you know, speak out, I like we women. I mean, I know many, many women feel like I'm just a mom or I'm just, you know, doing this or that, or I don't know that much. But women make a huge difference. Mothers make a huge difference. Like we are the ones who move these movements, like, think about. Like any toxin that's come to be any, anything that we've found out. It has come from mothers working so hard and lobbying for themselves and pushing, you know, in the legal sphere against these things and peacefully picketing, things like that. Like think about lead, you know, the lead industry was like, no lead's not hurting our, you know, children. And it was mothers who took that up and said, no, we think lead is hurting our children. Tobacco, even cigarettes like that was led primarily by mothers and, and women who were tired of seeing people being hurt by cigarettes. Think about b p A, that's like the, you know, a huge one in, in recent history. It's mothers who pushed all that through, who pushed to get toxic products out of those things, you know, who make these huge movements. And even before that, I mean, this is a funny one, which I know most people. Don't like think about, but like it was the women's movement that started prohibition of alcohol. I mean, I know that's been repealed and you know, we're not necessarily against alcohol or anything like that, but like we are very powerful beings and we need to use this system for our good and we need to stand up for our rights. And I know lots of women have been doing that in the pandemic and even before the pandemic. Showing, you know, their vaccine injured children or their children injured by a myriad of products. And most of the time, like lots of cases and product liability law all have to do with, you know, women pushing through. So I, I mean, not every case, but much of that is because women like us and like all of you, you know, stand up for their own body and start these movements. And so I just, I guess I just wanna say like, keep going. Your story's important. What you're talking about is important. And so don't be afraid. We don't need to be afraid. We just need to push the system through and create our new, our own new system. Absolutely. Beautifully said. Thank you so much for taking time to come and talk with me today and to share your wisdom with everybody. Anybody is wanting to connect with you a little bit deeper and. Ask some questions or learn a bit more or just chat, how can they reach you? Yeah, so you can follow me on instagram@crunchy.legal dot lady, and I also have a website and it's the crunchy wire.com. And that's not like completely running up and running right now as a busy lawyer mom, like it's, it's kind of tough. But yeah, you can connect with me on Instagram and I will also put your information down in the little bio box for everybody to be able to find easier. Awesome. Thanks, Jenny. Thank you. Thank you all for being here with us today. If you would like to further discuss this topic, or if you're ready to begin a healing journey of your own, I am here for you through the link in our show notes or through Instagram at live. Your legend, love and gratitude till Tuesday.